Sardine named a Leader in The Forrester Wave™: Financial Crime Management Solutions, Q3 2026

Learn More
The Saturday Fraud Strategist

Inside Bolt: Fighting Fraud in the Gray Zone

73 min

For a couple of years now, Jaanus Uudmäe’s LinkedIn posts have kept showing up in my feed, and they always carry a practical take on what fraud looks like at Bolt. Bolt is an on-demand marketplace headquartered in Estonia that operates in more than 50 countries, with ride hailing, food delivery, scooters, e-bikes, and car rentals. That means his team sees almost every kind of customer and almost every kind of abuse. Jaanus started as a software developer at Skype in 2007 and landed on the fraud team by accident. He joined Bolt in 2017 as a hands-on analyst when the fraud team had two people, and today he has 14 reporting to him.

In this conversation, we spend most of our time in what I’d call the gray zone. Gray zone fraud is behavior where you can’t tell whether you’re looking at a fraudster, a frustrated customer, or an ordinary person who tried a trick a friend told them about. We talk about refund abuse and bonus abuse, why first time customers are the hardest to judge, and how to build labels when no one hands them to you. We also get into how to explain losses to the business when the numbers aren’t clean, and how Jaanus’s team uses AI in a way that surprised me.

What you’ll hear in this episode:

  • How Jaanus went from a software developer at Skype to leading a 14 person fraud team at Bolt
  • Why marketplace fraud prevention gets harder in a three sided marketplace with riders, drivers, restaurants, and couriers
  • What gray zone first party fraud looks like in practice, from refund abuse to bonus abuse
  • Why first time customer fraud is the hardest call, and how Bolt decides when to act and when to fall back on standard policy
  • The difference between opportunistic vs professional fraud, and why opportunistic customers make A/B testing unreliable
  • How fraud label manufacturing works when nobody hands you the answers, and how to avoid recursive fraud labeling
  • Why label maturity matters, and which proxy metrics keep a team honest
  • How Bolt thinks about fraud risk appetite and fraud expansion cost when entering a new market
  • How AI works as a context layer for analysts, and why the fraud analyst mindset still matters

You should listen to this episode if you:

  • Deal with refund abuse or bonus abuse and can’t prove intent
  • Work at a marketplace or on-demand platform with more than two sides
  • Are launching in a new market and need a way to talk about fraud losses with the business
  • Create your own fraud labels and worry about fooling yourself
  • Want to see how a technical fraud team uses AI for analysis without removing human judgment
Episode notes & key takeaways

Gray zone fraud doesn’t fit the chargeback playbook

Chargebacks are the easier problem, because stolen cards leave a clear label and you can run an A/B test to see whether a rule was right. A marketplace adds more problems, since drivers can collude with riders and a food delivery order involves an eater, a restaurant, and a courier. The harder cases are bonus abuse and refund abuse, where someone lies about quality or a missing item and there is no hard evidence either way. Jaanus’s team looks at the history of the customer, the restaurant, and the courier, and links accounts through email, IP address, or device. When they can’t prove anything, they default to the standard policy for that market. Opportunistic customers make this harder, because they act like good customers until a friend shares a trick, and they go back to normal when a rule stops it. My takeaway is that in the gray zone, you don’t need to catch everyone. You need to act where the evidence is strong and let policy handle the rest.

Manufacturing labels without fooling yourself

Nobody tells you when someone abused a discount. The fraud team has to create the labels. One simple version is to call a new customer good if they later transact at full price, though stopping after the discount doesn’t prove fraud. I raised the risk of recursive logic, where the label and the rule share the same assumption. The results look right because they were built to. Jaanus’s guardrails are customer service ticket volume as a proxy, anecdotal feedback such as a CEO’s friend getting blocked, and a conservative bar, which means only blocking when he could explain the reason to anyone, even his family. He also monitors the system as a whole instead of rule by rule, and he accepts that labels mature slowly, sometimes over weeks. Measuring refund fraud is just as tricky, because denied refunds give you an estimate of savings while false positives stay hidden, since good customers rarely complain. His team works with a range and explains it when the number moves. If you manufacture the labels, you own their quality too.

Treat fraud in a new market as part of the cost of expansion

When Bolt enters a new market, it goes in light, with a reasonable set of controls like chargeback protection, and then watches what the market does. The losses become part of the expansion cost, and they also give Jaanus concrete accounts to show the business why more rules are needed. When Bolt Food started in Latvia, fraud reached about 5% of revenue even with decent controls, which made the conversation easy. His team warns strongly when a product has loopholes and rarely puts its foot down, but it asks the business to accept the loss if they go ahead anyway. There is no official budget line for this, only an unwritten agreement. I love that it swaps a performance target for a loss budget, and it reminds me that trying to predict every scheme in advance is a losing bet.

Rules for what’s new, models for what’s known

Bolt’s fraud team is technical and does little manual review, because transaction values are low, a few euros for a ride in some African markets and 20 to 30 euros in the UK. Humans step in when regulations require it, for example when a driver may be involved, or when a large payout is at stake. Machine learning covers the core fraud patterns accurately, and analysts write rules for new trends that the model hasn’t seen, sometimes deploying them within hours. Later the model is retrained and the manual rule can be retired. That is a healthy way to think about rules, as a bridge until something sturdier is ready.

AI as the context layer for the analyst

I expected Jaanus to tell me that AI writes his team’s analysis. He described something different. His team uses AI to store knowledge in context files, like the difference between a GPS point from the rider app and one from the driver app. That kind of detail used to live only in an analyst’s head. Writing SQL has become almost trivial. Jaanus now spends his time on the numbers and the decision. His team also adds context from other teams. Payment costs are one example. They show whether a change that reduces fraud simply raises processing fees. He still wants a human in the loop. AI can sound convincing while being wrong. Someone without SQL or fraud knowledge can’t validate the answer. What matters most is the analytical, skeptical mindset, along with the ability to convince other teams to change a flow. AI gives the team more reach. It doesn’t replace the judgment that makes someone a fraud analyst

Final takeaway

The most useful idea from this conversation is that uncertainty is something to plan for. You can’t prove every case in the gray zone. Instead, you set a high bar for action, agree on how much loss the business can accept, and check your own labels as carefully as your rules. That makes the fraud team an easier partner for the business, because everyone knows the trade being made. Whether you run a marketplace or a payments product, the same approach applies. Be clear about what you can prove, honest about what you can’t, and ready to explain both.

Not ready to stop the conversation about my, and hopefully your, favorite subject? Subscribe to The Saturday Fraud Strategist newsletter.

Connect with Jaanus Uudmäe | LinkedIn
Head of Fraud at Bolt

Connect with Chen Zamir | LinkedIn
Host of The Saturday Fraud Strategist
Helping fintechs build smarter fraud defenses
Co-author of “The Fraud Fighter’s AI Playbook”

Episode transcript
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
00:00
I think the fraud rate was like 5% of the overall revenue.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:05
Wow.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
00:06
You have somebody, you know, the CEO's friend gets blocked
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
00:09
or uh or doesn't get a discount and then you get
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
00:12
a very direct feedback that rules or not work.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
00:15
Let's agree that you will take this loss on yourself
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
00:19
then and then there immediately start the stop.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
00:22
It's like okay explain to me again what will happen.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
00:25
Processers always manage to surprise you
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
00:27
and come up with something different.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
00:30
So it's better to allow for some fraud to come in and then
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:34
What's up, everybody?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:35
Welcome to another episode of the Saturday Fraud Strategist.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:38
With me today, Jaanus Uudmäe from Bolt. Jaanus, welcome to the show.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
00:42
Hello, good to be here.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:47
That's awesome. Pleasure to have you on the show.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:50
Jaanus, I've seen your post popping up on my LinkedIn feed
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:54
for probably the better part of two or three years now.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:58
And you always have very interesting takes on fraud and also
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:02
specifically on managing fraud at Bolt, which, if you guys are not
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:06
familiar with Bolt, is on-demand marketplace, headquartered in Estonia.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:11
But Before we get there, Jaanus, maybe you can tell us a bit
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:14
about yourself, about your career, what brought you to
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:18
this to this role that you have right now at at Bolt.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
01:22
Sure. Like first of all, thank you for following me on LinkedIn.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
01:26
So that's always nice to hear that actually the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
01:29
stories that I write resonate with people. So that's good.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
01:33
But yeah, about myself.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
01:34
I got started in this fraud space already a long time
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
01:38
ago, like 20 years ago, when in 2007 I joined Skype
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:43
Wow.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
01:44
In Estonia as a software developer. So straight out of college.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
01:48
I just graduated from University of Arkansas in the United States.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
01:52
And I came back to Estonia, I was looking for a job.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
01:56
And a good friend of mine, my old classmate, he was working
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:00
at Skype, said it's a pretty cool place to join.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:03
And by accident, I ended up in the fraud
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:05
team, not knowing anything about fraud.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:08
Like most people in this space, you don't really study anti-fraud
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:12
or fraud fighting in the university, but yeah, I ended
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:16
up as a developer of fraud tools in Skype.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:19
Very cool experience, work there.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:21
For several years doing the internal tools
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:24
building and things related to that.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:26
And in the process, I got to know more about fraud
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:29
and all the interesting and cool schemes.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:32
And over time, as the team grew, I became more involved on the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:36
product side of fraud and became the product manager there.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:40
And ended up spending 10 years in Skype.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:43
And then Skype was acquired by Microsoft at Microsoft as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:47
And then in 2017, I believe, yes, this company called Taxify,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:51
which later got renamed to Bolt, approached me and and
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:55
said that hey, we kind of have a fraud problem as well
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
02:58
popping up that would you be interested in joining?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:02
And I thought that yeah, it's interesting
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:04
company, so so why not give it a try?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:07
Kind of restart of my career because I went from product
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:11
management to kind of doing hands-on analytics. At the time.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:15
So we had just two people working on
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:17
the fraud department at that point.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:19
So this is how I ended up at Bolt.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:22
And over time here, the team has grown.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:24
So right now I have 14 people reporting to me.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:27
And Bolt operates in like 50 plus countries.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:30
We have many different business lines.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:33
So we have the kind of taxi business, food delivery business,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:37
micromobility, which is scooters and e-bikes, then car rentals.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:41
And a business product so in different geographical
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:44
regions, different product lines, mostly in Europe
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:48
and Africa, but also Asia, South America, Canada.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:51
So we see a variety of different customers and different fosters.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
03:55
So life is very interesting here at Vault.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:06
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I bet.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:08
It it was interesting because when when we had our first call, and I
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:12
found out that he worked at Skype, I figured that at a certain point
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:17
we were kind of like colleagues because I was working from 2009 at
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:21
PayPal, and weirdly enough, if you know the history, PayPal and Skype
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:26
separately were bought by eBay around about the same time.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:29
Which is very weird to think about it nowadays that these
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:33
two companies ever lived under the same roof.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:36
But yeah, that's super cool.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:38
Bolt, I would say, I mean, for our American listeners, you cannot
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:42
really compare it to any kind of single company in the US, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:47
Like in my mind it was always kind of like Uber,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:50
but it's not really like Uber, right? Or not only.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
04:56
It is. Yeah, well it is it yeah, well it's like Uber but better.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
05:00
Right. That's what we would like to think.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
05:02
But in many ways, actually, we are very similar to Uber
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
05:06
and we operate in many of the same markets, right?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
05:09
We were not in the US, but Europe, Africa, we're on the same
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
05:13
markets, especially on the ride hailing side, and then Uber
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
05:16
has it's Uber Eats, and we have our own Bolt food.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
05:20
So a lot of them business lines are very
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
05:22
similar, the products are similar.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
05:24
The services that we offer are similar and speaking
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
05:27
to the Uber's fraud people, obviously fraudsters
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
05:31
and the fraud schemes are very similar as well.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:34
Yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:35
So so let's talk a bit about that because I think that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:38
marketplaces are, you know, it's a known issue.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:41
And you know, when you look at the retailer side of marketplaces,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:46
obviously your attack or sorry, the surface of attack is
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:49
is wider and there are all sorts of different schemes and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:53
let's say fraud patterns that can cause you damage.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:56
I do think that it actually gets worse when you're dealing with
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:01
kind of like the on-demand economy economy marketplaces.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:04
So tell us a bit about that.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:06
Like I'm guessing that you're seeing like extremely weird stuff when
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:11
it comes to fraud and to a lot of extent your definition of fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:15
Is probably quite different than how a lot of fraud fighters
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:19
who are listening to us right now would think about it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
06:39
Uh sure.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
06:39
I think pretty much every company has its
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
06:42
own challenges when it comes to fraud.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
06:45
It so much depends on what you're selling,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
06:47
what your what your services are.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
06:49
But for us, I think we see every every
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
06:52
piece of it pretty much like that.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
06:54
The standard fraud that most companies that sell anything
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
06:58
online deal with is this issue with chargebacks.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:01
So basically stolen credit cards that somebody
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:04
uses to purchase services on your system.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:06
So this is a very standard thing.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:08
This is what kind of industry standard,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:11
what the Visa and MasterCard measure.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:13
We gotta make sure that we are below those
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:16
fraud thresholds that they offer.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:18
So this is kind of yeah when you speak to other companies,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:22
other fraud fighters, everybody sees this part that how
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:25
do you deal with those people who'd come with stolen
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:29
cards and then try to purchase your services.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:32
But being on the marketplace we also have Decide that we don't
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:36
really control the services and the and and what's offered.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:39
So we can have issues with drivers that are colluding with the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:43
riders, and we can have issues with potentially restaurants.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:47
So this bec creates a lot of complexity.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:50
And in food delivery, especially, that you have this three
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:54
sided marketplace that you have the person ordering the food
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
07:57
that we call the eater, and then you have the restaurant
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:01
preparing the food, and you have the courier in play.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:04
So if and when something goes wrong.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:07
And there is some accusation of fraud, it's sometimes
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:10
very hard to figure out actually what's going on.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:13
Is somebody colluding with somebody,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:16
or is it just a misunderstanding?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:18
So so we have those issues, and then also a lot of our attention
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:22
nowadays goes to things which are not easily that measurable.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:26
So, for example, I think what what we call campaign
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:29
fraud, or some companies call bonus uh
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:32
Yeah.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:33
Abuse or bonus fraud.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:34
Is obviously, you want to get new customers to the platform.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:38
So we offer quite good discounts for new customers.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:41
Obviously, some people like fraudsters they think that, well, why
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:46
would why would I ever pay a full price for a service when if I
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:50
create new accounts, I can just continue getting stuff at the discount?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:54
And so we're trying to prevent that.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
08:57
And that's very hard to fight against because you don't have a
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
09:01
good way of understanding like was it now a good customer that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
09:05
used a discount and later just churned for whatever reason?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
09:09
Or was it the fraudster who who didn't
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
09:12
ever intend to pay the full price?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
09:14
So this is this is one of the big challenges
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
09:17
for us in an ongoing fight.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:19
Yeah, I think especially the like the three party model is very
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:23
interesting because just thinking about collusion from a single vector,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:27
which is like buyer and seller, you suddenly have three.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:31
You have buyer and seller, and you have seller
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:34
and driver, and you have driver and buyer.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:37
And I'm just thinking how much just adding this that this third
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:41
party adds to the surface of attack and what kind of very
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:45
weird things probably you've seen along the years.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:48
And and I'm guessing that this is a lot
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:51
of the times this is the challenge.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:53
Just the just managing the complexity and thinking about
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:57
the like the fraud stories themselves and trying
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:00
to stay ahead of the fraud stories especially.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:03
And I'm guessing that this is also an issue that Bolt
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:07
has, what at least five different product lines,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:10
and you keep shipping more and new features.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:13
So also the product landscape keeps changing under your feet.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
10:25
Correct, yeah. So it never becomes boring, let's put it this way.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
10:29
Yeah, with all the new features and new services.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
10:32
And just to be clear, like most of our customers are good customers.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
10:36
So nothing wrong with them.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
10:38
So just that because we have so many of them, we see all
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
10:42
sorts of weird patterns that sometimes are not even fraud,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
10:45
they're just issues with the platform, and then trying
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
10:49
to distinguish between an issue and somebody intentionally
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
10:53
trying to abuse your platform, that's difficult.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
10:56
Like let's take a simple example of refund abuse.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
10:59
So, what what I mean when I say refund abuse is
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:02
that somebody intentionally lies to you about quality
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:05
of services in order to get a refund.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:08
Just kind of initially pays for the service, but then comes back and
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:12
says that they're not happy to to get the money back effectively.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:16
And it's this is very common in the delivery business because with
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:21
food delivery it's very hard for us to prove what was the quality
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:25
of the food, or did it arrive in in a nice way, or did the courier
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:29
like mess it up and and shake the pizza in the package?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:33
And was it all a big big just chunk, right?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:36
So so there when we see a customer complaint coming
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:39
in, like we have a lot of data about the customers,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:42
about the restaurants, the courier.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:44
We can see the route that they drove and all that all the times and
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:49
everything, but we're not there to assess the quality of the food.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:53
So to understand whether somebody is telling the truth or not
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
11:57
about some missing item, it's it's almost impossible.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:00
Like we don't have any hard evidence.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:03
So we have to look at other data to kind of understand
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:06
like, could there be that somebody's lying?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:09
Like we can see that does the customer have an
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:12
issue, like history of complaining a lot.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:15
Like every time they order, they they always
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:18
say that something is missing.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:20
That's obviously a clear sign that they're not a good customer.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:24
Or does the restaurant have a history
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:26
of not putting the items in the bag?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:28
Or does the courier always do something weird?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:31
So we have those data points.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:33
But it's not always so clear-cut because even for
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:36
good customers, like stuff like this happens.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:39
Good restaurant as well, sometimes they forgot to add an item into
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:44
the into the bag or they put a wrong wrong item in there.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:47
So you can't immediately say that based on
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:50
one case like that somebody's at fault.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:53
I'm guessing that it's also
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
12:55
Issue. Yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:57
Yeah, I'm guessing it's also very difficult when it's the first
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:01
transaction of a new buyer and you both don't have the history and also
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:05
you don't know you know, because is it a good customer that is now in
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:10
a real danger to churn because they had such a shitty experience?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:14
Or is it a fraudster that is clearly defrauding?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:21
Of course, yes.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:21
The first time customers, those are the hardest because
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:25
if you already have history about the customer, it's
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:28
quite straightforward in most of the cases.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:30
But the new ones, that's the trickiest.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:33
Because in the fraud team we don't want to you
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:35
know, prevent hundred percent of the fraud.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:38
It's we know it's not possible.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:40
What we want is we want to grow the business but in
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:43
a sustainable way so we don't lose too much money.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:46
But yeah, the first time customers it's always the trickiest
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:49
because if they have a bad experience, that can
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:52
mean that we lose them as a customer forever.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:55
So we want to make sure that we take good care of them, but at the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
13:58
same time we want to make sure that those are not fraudsters.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:02
So the way we approach it is that we look at the data.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:05
So if we on the fraud side can somehow prove
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:08
that this customer is actually a fraudster.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:10
And the way we do it is that we can look at data items that we see,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:14
like for example, if they use the same email address then a previous
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:18
customer who has a history of asking for a refund, we can quite
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:22
safely say that, okay, those two accounts are linked.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:25
This is the same person just trying to abuse our refund policy.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:29
Or if you have some other data items which are hint strongly
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:32
suggesting that this is the same customer, like IP addresses or
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:36
or some device information, then we can say safely say that yeah,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:40
this is not a real customer or this is not the customer that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:44
we want, and they will they don't deserve a discount.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:47
But on if we can't prove it, then we just default to the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:50
standard store policy that Bolt has, like whatever it is
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:53
in a particular market, what's the standard refund refund
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
14:57
amount and and how many times you can get a refund.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:00
So this is the way we work it. But it's it's always very tricky.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:03
And we work together with the business teams as well
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:06
to kind of show that, okay, this is what we see.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:09
Like this this is what a normal customer behaves, and
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:12
we can show that if a customer, you know, three times
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:16
in a row, they always complain about something.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:18
It's a sign that they're a bad they have bad intentions, that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:22
that they never just do a normal order and stop complaining.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
15:26
Do you do you also w when you say that you're working about that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
15:30
you're working on it with the business team, what what does that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
15:34
actually entail when when you're outline your outlining your
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
15:38
fraud policy and how you treat first time customers?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:46
Mm-hmm.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:46
So by business team I might mean mostly our customer service
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:50
department who is in charge of like handling those flows and who
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:54
owns the policy of like what's the okay if you complain that your
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
15:58
pizza is gold, like what's the refund amount that you should get?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:02
So they own the defaults and then we work with them to show
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:06
the data to also see that we don't just want to block everybody
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:10
from getting a refund, but with the data we show that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:13
like we think that this is reasonable, explain those
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:16
fraud scenarios at high level to them as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:19
And it's like a test for us.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:21
If we can prove to them that that makes sense, then it's good.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:25
Then we we can implement the policy.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:27
That does not mean that we we need to run every rule change by them.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:31
It's more at the high level that this is this
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:34
is the type of fraud that we want to tackle.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:37
These are the kind of the data points, and this is this is the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:41
amount that we can kind of cover or protect for the company.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:44
'Cause it also means that like if if that money goes out
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:48
to the fraudsters as a refund, that's potentially a refund
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
16:52
amount that some legitimate customer won't get.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
16:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So but I think that's the interesting part, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
16:59
That you're working against a budget, but like a lost
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:03
budget, and you're trying to make sure that you're
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:06
spending this lost budget on the right folks. That makes sense.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:10
Tell me, I mean, this sounds obviously like a very hard problem.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:14
Uh and it sounds like like I wonder without having the evidence, and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:19
as you said, like it's very hard to know for sure what transpired.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:23
And it's definitely hard to know for sure if you decide
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:27
not to give a refund or if you decide even not
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:30
to accept a transaction in the first place.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:33
How do you how do you actually manage to automate and build
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:37
rules or even models around these kind of problems?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
17:46
Good question.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
17:47
So I'll start with a simple case, like if we're
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
17:50
talking about chargebacks, stolen cards.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
17:52
Uh for that, it's actually possible
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
17:55
to measure it in a reasonable way.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
17:57
So there we we can run an A/B test to say that you know there are
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:01
certain transactions that our system flags as high risk that we
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:05
would normally stop or where we would do a 3DS challenge.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:09
So we can take a small percentage of those transactions
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:13
and let them go on without any friction.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:16
And then we can measure what happens.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:18
So if that transaction results in a chargeback, then
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:22
we know that our rule that triggered was correct.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:25
Because indeed there was a fraudulent signal in the end.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:29
So our rule was correct, and we can be happy about
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:32
it that our system is working as normal.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:35
But if it turns out that we flag it as high risk, but if we allow
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:39
the transaction to happen and there were then nothing bad happened,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:43
it was a good case, then we know that it's a false positive.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:47
And that's that's the F-word that in the fraud team everybody
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
18:51
is very concerned about false positives, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
19:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:15
But but that works really well for for labeled data.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:18
So in in in this in the case of chargebacks, the data is labeled.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:22
You know what is good, what is bad, and you can target it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:26
But now let's say, yeah, that that's the that's the easy part.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:30
But even there, the it's it's it's not super easy.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:33
There are complications there as well, but it's relatively easy.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:37
But then if you're talking about, let's say, this campaign
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:41
campaign abuse and like which customers should get
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:44
the campaign codes and which which accounts are basically
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:47
created in order to just milk that money.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:50
It's a much harder problem because nobody comes back to you and
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:54
says that, you know, I was able to trick you and and get this
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
19:58
discount for for a hundred different accounts that I created.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:02
So so the data is not labeled.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:04
So it is our job in the fraud team to somehow put rules in place to
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:08
label it so we can see that somehow say that these are this is the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:12
money that went to fraudsters and this is for good customers.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:16
The simplistic, you know, approach that we can take
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:19
and where we can look at the total opportunities.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:22
Like let's look at all the customers where as a first time
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:26
buyer they get some discount, let's say 30% off.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:29
And then after that discount period, did they
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:32
make any transactions at normal rate.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:34
And you can say that if they made any transactions with a full
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:38
price, you can say that these are actually good customers.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:42
That's one way of doing it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:44
And if they stop making any transactions,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:46
does it mean that they're fraudsters?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:49
No, maybe there's just customers who who wanted to try the product,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:53
but for some reason didn't want to pay the full price for it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
20:57
That doesn't mean that they're fraudsters,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:00
it's just customers who try it. It's it's quite normal. Right.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:04
So so it's up up to us to kind of label the data
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:07
and say, like, at which point do we draw the line
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:10
and say that this is fraud, this is not.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:12
And to make it even more interesting, that we have seen fraudsters
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:16
who are kind of call them opportunistic fraudsters.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:20
So what that means is that you kinda you behave as a normal customer
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:24
under normal circumstances, but then let's say your friend tells you
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:28
that, there is a way to get some money back from Bolt or a little
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:33
trick to to get a discount, which is not completely okay by the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:37
rules, but you know, this is how you do it, then they will try it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:41
So this customer they will try to cheat the system a bit.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:44
So if we allow them to do it, they will continue doing that.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:48
And we as a company lose money.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:50
But if our rules step in and stop that behavior, like stop
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:54
that refund or don't give them the discount code, then this
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
21:58
this customer see that the hack doesn't work basically.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
22:01
So I will just go back to using the product as a good customer.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
22:05
So does it mean that this people are now fraudsters or not.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
22:09
They're more like on this gray area.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
22:11
So building any A/B tests is very tricky for them because
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
22:15
they can behave as fraudsters or as good customers.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
22:18
So when you're trying to measure it in an A/B test like are
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
22:22
they good or bad, it completely like messes up your data.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:26
Yeah, and even if they cause you loss on a single
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:29
transaction, it might be that they are still net
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:32
positive when you look at their lifetime value.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:35
But I I want to ask you a different question because what you
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:39
describe is I think definitely the right approach, which means
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:43
in the end, you need to manufacture your own labels.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:47
There is no way around it if you want to to do automation.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:51
But the risk in doing that is that it's very easy to be tempted, let's
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:55
say it like that, or to fall into the trap of recursive logic.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:59
Meaning I label trans accounts by saying, Yeah, they didn't transact
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
23:04
for a full price after their discount period, and then and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
23:08
this creates my labels, and then I write a rule that you know,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
23:12
like uses somehow the same logic to make decisions.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
23:15
And if my rule logic and my labor logic is the same.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
23:19
I mean, obviously I will have good results, but it
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
23:22
can also be that I was wrong in my assumption.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
23:25
And even though my manufactured numbers look
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
23:28
good, I create a lot of false positives.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
23:31
How do you make sure that you don't you know,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
23:34
like fall into these kind of like biases?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
23:46
Well, we do have guardrails for that.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
23:48
Like we measure, for example, customer service
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
23:51
tickets related to that issue.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
23:52
So obviously customers get good customers get very angry when they
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
23:57
don't get the refund when they rightfully deserve one right.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:00
So we this is kinda proxy that we see that if the reef if the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:04
customer service ticket amount goes up, that maybe something is wrong.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:08
It might be that the fraudsters are actually
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:11
being very vocal about it as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:13
But at least it's it's a sign that hey,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:15
we should look more deeper into it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:18
Like maybe there is something in it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:20
And then, like the in the worst case or in the most interesting
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:24
case, it's you have somebody, you know, the CEO's friend gets
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:27
blocked or or doesn't get a discount, and then you get a very
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:31
direct feedback that, hey, your rules are good, rules are not
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:35
working, and then the then you need to explain yourself.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:38
So that's a proxy way, right?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:40
But it it is very tricky, especially
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:42
when you create your own labels.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:44
Like how do you know that it's it's yeah, like you said,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:48
it's a trap that you can say that I'm right because
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:51
I blocked it and I blocked it because I'm right.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:54
And they automatically say that that this is the way.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
24:57
But for that we we we are playing it actually
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:00
quite conservatively in our company.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:02
I think that usually when we don't give a discount or say
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:06
that somebody is behaving as a abuser or fraudster.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:09
I want it to be in a very clear way that I can explain
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:12
it to anybody in the company or even in my family.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:15
Like this is the reason.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:17
Like these are these are very s that's very strong evidence
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:20
that this is not a good customer with not good intentions.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:24
But yeah, even then, mistakes do happen.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:26
And we're always balancing this side that you can
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:29
see that maybe we're blocking too much in some
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:32
markets, then we scale back the rules a bit.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:35
And there is yeah, there is no right or wrong answer.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:38
There there is no like state where you can say now the rules are
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:42
ready, they're perfect, you you cannot make them better.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:46
And it's always a fluctuation that we see that you
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:49
can optimize the rules first to stop the losses.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:52
Usually that's how we do it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:53
Like when you're bleeding a lot of money,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:56
you need to stop the bleeding.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
25:58
And then once the once the situation has stabilized, then you
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
26:01
start looking at okay, where are my false positives here?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
26:05
How can I make the rules more accurate to
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
26:07
allow more good customers to go through?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
26:10
And And yeah, but but it it's a proxy way of CS, just anecdotal
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
26:14
evidence from from friends and family and just common sense.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:18
And and these proxy labels or proxy actually counter labels, do you
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:22
measure them against your rules or also against your label sources?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:26
I'm guessing like the labeling itself is not done manually.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:30
I'm guessing that you have kind of like batch processes that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:34
just go through whatever, through the entire data every night
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:38
and and kind of like mark what you think is is bad.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:42
Do you measure like both only the rules, only the labels?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:46
How does it how does it happen?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
26:49
We at like automatically we measure it
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
26:51
at the whole set, at the high level.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
26:53
Not not at the rule level, but yeah especially with those labels
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
26:57
that we create ourselves, then it's it's more trickier.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:01
But then you see that it's the health of the system overall.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:04
If everything is fine, no reason to dig any deeper.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:07
But if you see that something is trending in a weird way,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:11
then you can manually kind of go deeper and see like
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:14
well, well, which rules are triggering the most.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:17
Is it because of fraud? Is it because of maybe some data issue?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:21
Because yeah, like a rule triggering more than usual doesn't mean
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:25
that you have all sudden all of a sudden false positives.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:29
It might be that there is pressure from fraudsters
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:32
and you actually want this rule to trigger.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:35
So you need to look more into it to to get to get the data.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:38
And the problem is also that with those labels that the time
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:42
it takes for the label to appear, we call it maturing, it
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:46
can be quite long because you make a decision today about
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:49
one transaction, but in order to assess whether that customer
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:53
is a good or a bad customer, you need to wait for the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:56
next transaction, next order, and maybe a few more.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
27:59
And that can take in some cases weeks before you have sufficient
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
28:03
data because some of our customers, you know, order multiple
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
28:07
times per day, then you have quick labels.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
28:10
But a lot of them it's just you make an order a couple of times a
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
28:14
month and it's then very like you you're waiting during that period
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
28:18
and you don't know whether you make made the right or wrong decision.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
28:22
So there is also this inertia in changing the rules.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
28:26
That what you change today has an effect
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
28:28
that you can observe maybe next month.
Ad Break
28:31
Hey folks, I want to take a quick break
Ad Break
28:33
to speak about today's sponsor, me.
Ad Break
28:34
If you're finding this useful, do me a small favor, like and subscribe.
Ad Break
28:38
It really helps with the algorithm.
Ad Break
28:40
And if you're not already on my newsletter, the Saturday
Ad Break
28:43
fraud strategist, you should definitely check it out.
Ad Break
28:45
Every Saturday, I break down fraud trends, real cases, and strategies
Ad Break
28:49
from my own experience of building and operating fraud prevention systems.
Ad Break
28:53
Whether you're new to the space or a season practitioner,
Ad Break
28:56
I'm sure you'll find it interesting. Check the link in the description.
Ad Break
29:00
Takes 2 seconds. You'll thank yourself next Saturday.
Ad Break
29:02
Now, back to the video.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:04
I I wonder with the risk of, you know, like going on a tangent
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:08
with AI, here I said the word, with AI, there like I see two
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:12
I don't know if to call them risks here or enablers.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:15
Let's call it in enabling factors.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:17
One, we know that today to send, you know, a picture of a rotten
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:22
burger or an upside down pizza is very, very easy. Yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:25
It's like one prompt away from you.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:28
And secondly, like literally in the last like month or
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:31
two, we have all of these agent assistants, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:35
The instincts, the muses.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:36
And now you also don't need to like you know
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:39
interact with customer support yourself.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:42
You can just you know like manufacture with a prompt, your image, tell
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:47
your assistant through WhatsApp to get a refund, and that's it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:51
You're pretty much done with it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:53
I wonder like how have you seen AI shape the kind of like
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:57
first party fraud scene, both on the opportunistic side,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
30:00
if you can say, and also on the on the fraud side.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:20
Uh it's definitely yeah, like altering the pictures or
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:23
coming up with with pictures is definitely a thing.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:26
But I would say that this is not so prominent.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:29
At least I have not seen it yet.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:31
Or maybe maybe they're so good that I've not seen it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:35
But in some cases for us, like for fraudsters, they
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:38
know the right kind of things to go after as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:41
So if you say that you have a missing item, you don't
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:45
even need a fake photo because there is no Like we
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:48
don't ask for a photo if the item is missing.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:51
You take a picture of nothing.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:53
So you don't even need to generate the picture.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
30:56
So that's that's the easier way. You don't burn any tokens.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:00
What they can do, yeah.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:01
Like you can write maybe a really good, sad story
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:04
about like describing your problem as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:07
But to counter that on our side, we we have also like machine
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:11
learning models looking at what what are you writing about like
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:15
like what's the actual issue that you're describing and then we
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:19
can assess from fraud side that does it make sense or not.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:23
And then we can look at the data.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:25
Like you can fake a picture, but it's usually it
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:28
is harder to to fake all the other elements that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:31
we see in the background about the order.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
31:34
So we have to rely on that.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:36
Do you think though it helps more the opportunistic I I don't want to
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:40
call them fraudsters, but kind of like the the legitimate accounts that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:45
opportunistically commit refund fraud because it's not only relatively
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:50
easy in their mind, but also it's a bit more far removed from them.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:54
It's like it's not them doing that, right? It's their agent doing that.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:59
I don't know if you've seen this effect.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:03
It could, I I've not seen like usually these agents and these more
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:07
sophisticated schemes, these are for professional fraudsters.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:11
The opportunistic people are more like,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:14
hey, I heard my friend did it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:16
So he or she got a discount, so why am I the stupid
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:19
one, you know, paying the full price always?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:22
Like let me do it as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:24
But usually then people try to do it manually.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:27
And and yeah, they don't go to agents at at this stage yet.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:31
So maybe some do, but in the end for us the methodology
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:34
of detecting it is still the same.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
32:37
Like and and to making sure that we we kinda manage the risk there.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:45
Got it. Very interesting.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:46
I I wonder okay, so we talked a bit about the labeling part and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:50
how you how you can make decisions in this kind of like uncertain
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:55
environment where it's plagued with first party fraud and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:59
also like three parties within this business model.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:02
I wonder how like how do you actually measure your effectiveness here?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:07
Because, you know, with chargebacks, again, it's very easy.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:11
I I get chargebacks, I write a rule, I get less chargebacks.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:15
And here, you know, I I don't know how
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:17
much like I I would say differently.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:19
It probably you probably always have refunds.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:22
And I'm I would assume that, you know, like certain attacks
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:26
don't really change your refund rate tremendously.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:30
I might be wrong here, but it's probably very hard for you to A get
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:34
a sense of how how many refunds you actually saved on one hand.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:38
And on the other hand, I don't know if you if it's that easy to
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:43
understand like what do the false positive cost you at the same time.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:06
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:08
It is a difficult problem.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:10
And talking to my industry peers as well, like
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:13
there is there is no easy way to do it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:15
Like yeah, like one way indeed, like to measure how much we have
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:19
potentially saved, that's quite straightforward because we can
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:23
say that you know, we need we deny the refund to X amount of
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:27
cases and the refund value would have been you multiply it whatever
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:31
whatever the amount is, like you get to a number.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:34
So this is potentially what you have saved for the company.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:38
But what you don't know indeed there is that the false positive
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:42
aspect of how how many of those were now good customers that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:46
got really pissed off at you because they they got a bad
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:49
service and then you denied them a refund potentially
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:53
and you lose their business going forward, right?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:56
So this is the tricky part.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
34:58
And to measure that, like we discussed, it's to
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:00
measure that accurately is is quite difficult.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:03
It's just because you always have refunds and you're
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:07
gonna always have people who who can lie about
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:10
it depending on their mood or whatnot.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:12
So it is a constant constant struggle, let's put it this way,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:16
that we kind of know, yeah, like how much we can prevent.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:19
And and then you rely on the stories of what somebody picks up
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:23
manually that they I see a weird pattern of somebody requesting a
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:27
lot of refunds, and for some reason our fraud rules don't pick it up.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:32
So we can look into that, like what's the pattern, and you
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:35
make an assessment: does it look like fraud or not?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:39
But yeah, the false positives are even trickier because a lot of
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:43
the customers, good customers, don't come and complain to you.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:47
So you don't even have this proxy of CS.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:49
And it therefore it's also very hard to set targets.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:52
Because w w what is your and how do you how do you kind
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:56
of measure that your team is doing a good job or not?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
35:59
Because there are external factors, like the amount of refunds
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:03
depends on quality of the restaurants, the quality of the couriers,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:07
maybe even the overall economic situation when the economy is
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:11
not doing so well, people are more tempted, good people are
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:15
more tempted to ask for a refund to game the system a bit.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:19
So there are external factors playing as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:21
So we kind of try to establish some sort of range where
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:25
we say that okay, we we think that our refund fraud is at
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:29
this level based on the data and what we can prove.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:32
So let's try to kind of make sure that we
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:34
we roughly save that amount of money.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:37
And if it goes up, then we need to explain
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:39
it or goes down, like what are we doing?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:42
And the false positives as well, like the the proxy metrics or the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:46
cardrails with CS tickets and and those cases are are there to keep
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:50
us honest and and to keep us from making too many mistakes.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:54
But it's very hard to say like where is the sweet spot.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
36:57
How do you know that now the team is performing really well
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
37:01
and are we doing better than last year, for example?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
37:04
Very hard to say.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:06
So I I think I I mean I I would kind of expect this answer, but then
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:10
my my next assumption would be that actually the biggest challenge
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:14
is facing this kind of like downward pressure from leadership.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:19
Because if you cannot really say, we're doing great, leave
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:22
us alone, and cousin of the CEO now got declined or banned
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:26
or whatever, and there aren't really set goals.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:29
It's very easy for the business to kind of
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:32
like say, look, we need to grow faster.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:35
We like we just entered this market.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:37
And you know, and and our numbers like are
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:40
way worse than our other other markets.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:43
And and you, you know, you can be like,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:45
Yeah, because the market is way worse. What can I do?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:49
And fraudsters are early adopters. How do you how do you manage?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:53
Because I think this is like the biggest challenge.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:56
How do you manage your own business leadership around this uncertainty
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
38:01
and around this inability to kind of like, you know, like
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
38:05
give them a confident measure of how well you're doing.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:19
Mm-hmm. Very good question.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:20
Like first of all, I would I I think that our
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:23
leadership is quite good and and and smart.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:26
So they understand the challenge.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:28
And I'm not saying it only because they pay my
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:31
salary, but because I truly see that as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:34
That they they do understand the struggle.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:37
Like there is it's possible to explain it
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:40
to them, so that's the starting point.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:43
And then the second what we have done is that we don't overreact
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:47
or over control it when we enter a new market.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:50
So usually we go in with just two new products, new new areas with
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:54
just a kind of reasonable set of controls that we know that need to
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
38:59
be there for sure, like chargeback controls and things like this.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:03
So kind of go in quite light on the rules and
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:06
then observe what the market actually does.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:09
It's it's good for two things.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:11
Like first it enables expansion because that's like when you
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:15
go to a new market that's the key that we we want to get
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:19
reasonable market share we want to grow as fast as possible
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:23
and you can say that the fraud cost is just the cost
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:26
that you are paying as part of the expansion cost.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:29
That we're willing to take a bit more losses.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:32
But then once you have the losses then it's much easier for for me
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:37
to go and show that hey based on the data we can see that this is
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:41
this is going on like guys you can see I can pull up some concrete
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:46
example accounts, like this is the type of fraud that's happening.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:50
Like obviously, everybody understands that we we want to stop it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:54
So then it's much easier for us to kind of prove that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
39:58
we need these rules and we will add some friction,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:01
we will do the things that we need to do.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:04
And smart people will also understand that ultimately.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:07
Unfortunately, that there will always be false positives as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:12
So so so then it, yeah, exactly.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:14
So I I remember back in the day when our Bolt food delivery
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:18
business was just starting and we we didn't have really
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:21
fraud for a long time, like chargebacks in that.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:25
And we had just expanded to Latvia and in Latvia we operated
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:29
for a couple of months without any issues as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:32
And then we got hit by fraud.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:34
And and at one point I think the fraud rate was
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:37
like five percent of the overall revenue.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:40
And that was with like reasonable fraud controls.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:43
It was it's not that we were running without any controls.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:47
We had quite okayish rules in place, but
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:50
it was five percent of the revenue. So that's like wow.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:53
Very easy to explain to the local teams and to the management
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
40:57
that what like why we need these these rules, these these
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
41:01
endpoints, this data, like it was a no-brainer.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
41:04
But but yeah, before that, like even when you look back, like what
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
41:09
rules could we have built to prevent this five percent loss?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
41:13
No matter how hard you think or how how many tokens you burn
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
41:17
nowadays with AI to try to come up with the rules for the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
41:20
schemes, like fraudsters always managed to surprise you.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
41:24
And come up with something different.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
41:27
So it's better to allow for some fraud to come in and
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
41:30
then actually deal with the actual problem, not just
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
41:34
just some hypothetical thing and be wrong.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
41:42
I I I love it because I think it touches two two points.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
41:45
One, which is I I like see as a recurrent theme in how you guys
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
41:49
are working, is really to to to like plainly budget it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
41:53
And I and I and I liked how you positioned going into a new market,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
41:58
you need to kind of like budget fraud as part of your expansion.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:02
I was always thinking about it, you you basically you buy data.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:06
I I think your expansion expansion tag price
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:09
sorry price tag is is is even better.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:11
Secondly, I think like playing it cool, and just giving the business
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:16
what it wants and let them from time to time to actually fall into fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:21
Many times, even though it sounds very how should I say it, very
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:25
Machiavellistic, but many times it is actually much easier.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:29
To manage both the business and fraud, then going out very, very with
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:34
a very low risk appetite, with very high constraint, and with this kind
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:38
of like, you know, this this fear that you might get a lot of fraud,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:43
that actually many times get the opposite, the opposite result.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:47
So yeah, I I.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:48
I I really love how you how you frame this,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:51
especially around market expansion. That was very interesting.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:15
That that it that is true indeed.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:17
And it of course we're we're being reasonable.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:20
Like when we see that there is a product that like is has so many
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:24
loopholes, like then we strongly advise the business like guys,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:28
like look, like guys and girls, like this doesn't make sense.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:32
Like we know from experience that this is a bad
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:35
idea, we should put some controls in place.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:37
Like we do strongly warn them.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:39
Very rarely do we like put the foot down and say like no way we're
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:44
going with this, like what we say that okay, if we're going, like
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:48
let's agree that you will take this loss on yourself, then.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
43:52
Exactly
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:53
And then they're immediately start that the stop is
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:55
like, okay, explain to me again what will happen.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
43:58
Like before that, they're not even listening that much,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
44:01
but then it's like, okay, now the loss is on you.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
44:04
Then they will listen and and usually they're
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
44:06
yeah, they they will understand.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
44:08
But we have had some cases like last year as well, where
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
44:11
we indeed launched a product knowingly that that it it had
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
44:14
some major issues and we were lacking fraud controls and
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
44:17
we did get hit hard, harder than we even expected.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
44:20
And it was it was a good lesson for everybody in the company that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
44:24
hey, well these guys kinda warned us and and these things actually
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
44:27
do happen that there there are frauds out there that will take
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
44:31
advantage of the of the weaknesses that you built into your products.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
44:35
Absolutely. What can I say? I've been there.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
44:37
I want to switch gear a bit.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
44:39
And you know, we we talked a lot about fraud and how
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
44:43
we deal with fraud, especially first party fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
44:46
I I wonder, you know, like going a bit more to
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
44:49
the side of defenses and how you guys work.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
44:52
I think we we talked very little about it when we had our prep call.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
44:57
But it it does sound like your team A are relatively technical.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
45:01
I mean, in the end, you guys do very little manual review, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
45:05
Most of what you do is automation with
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
45:08
rules, with models, with whatever.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
45:10
I wonder how how much you guys use AI.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
45:12
And and also in what ways you used AI.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
45:15
What's working, what's not so much working.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
45:32
Yeah, maybe before even talking about AI, a quick overview
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
45:35
of our kind of fraud defenses or how it's built up built
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
45:39
up is that yeah, like you said, it's the team is technical
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
45:43
and we don't spend a lot of time on manual reviews.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
45:46
And main reason being that our average
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
45:49
transaction value is relatively low.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
45:51
Like a ride can cost in an African market, just a few Euros.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
45:55
Maybe even in UK we're talking about 20, 30 euros.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
45:59
So to review one case at a time, it doesn't really make sense.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:03
There are certain aspects where we must do human reviews, like when
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:07
we suspect that the driver is actually involved in the scheme, then
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:12
by regulations that sort of decision needs to be done by a human.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:16
Or when we're talking about do we pay out some big amount
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:20
to a driver or restaurant, then human is involved.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:23
But mostly the rules are based on data and analytics, that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:27
like plainly, like if there is a new scheme, especially what
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:31
we have is a fraud analyst going to the database, pulling
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:35
some data, trying to find the patterns and doing this
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:38
sort of data extraction and data analysis, right?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:42
This is what we have done from day one since I joined Bolt.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:46
But on top of that, what we have built as a next layer as well is
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:50
the kind of, I would call it the traditional machine learning.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:54
So, machine learning models that learn from labeled data,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
46:58
that you have scoring each new transaction, each new
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:01
activity, and then making the decision of like do
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:05
we allow it, do we step up the challenge or not?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:08
So, this is the kind of the automation and and machine learning.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:12
And it works really well in known for known fraud patterns.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:16
So, this machine learning is it's very accurate,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:19
false positives are low, it's super good.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:22
So, the way we have it right now is that machine learning
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:26
covers most of the core fraud, and then the human rules
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:29
are there to address new and emerging trends that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:33
the machine learning doesn't yet know about.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
47:40
Exactly. Yes. Yeah.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:41
And it's doesn't have the training data.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:43
So the human can build a rule, deploy it really fast in a matter
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:47
of you know hours if needed, make changes to stop the bleeding.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:51
So and then eventually machine learning will also like
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:54
the model will be retrained, it will know about it and
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
47:58
then hopefully we can get rid of the manual rule.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:01
So this is the traditional way.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:03
And now with AI, like where where does AI come in?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:06
AI definitely helps us in this analysis part that the human does.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:10
Because as I explained, we have so many different countries,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:14
so many product lines, so many features.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:16
Like there is even in when you think about it in our ride
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:20
hailing product, when you when you ride like sure.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:23
In the beginning of the ride you get an estimated price.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:27
We can book that amount from your credit card, but
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:30
then stuff can start happening while you're ride.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:33
You can have a destination change event.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:35
You can have a paid wait time fee.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:38
You can have just a route can change.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:40
And at the end of the trip you can decide to leave a tip and then
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:44
it's up to us to decide like do we allow you to leave a tip?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:48
Do we allow you to add a destination change waypoint?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:51
Which changes the price drastically,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:53
like what do we do in those steps?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:56
And at the database level, all of those data points are
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
48:59
stored in various tables and the architecture keeps changing
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:03
because you know the the feature teams are optimizing
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:06
for it, building like re-engineering the work.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:09
So to know all of this context is quite difficult.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:12
Even for a seasoned analyst who has worked on that field
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:16
for a long time, there is always gotchas that oh, but for
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:19
this payment method, the data is stored a little bit differently,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:23
and what does this thing actually mean?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:26
So for us, this conversational analytics
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:28
is really a game changer there.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:30
That now we're storing all of this knowledge that used
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:34
to be in some analyst head who was looking at it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:37
We're storing it in context files.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:39
So all of this works that hey, if you have a destination change
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:43
initiated by the driver, then you should look at this data.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:47
And what does this GPS point actually mean?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:49
Is it the GPS point of the that you get
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:52
from the rider app or the driver app?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:54
And all of these little details get that can make a difference.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
49:58
And when you're doing the analysis as a human, you might
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:02
get it wrong or you might have a wrong assumption.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:05
But working with AI, then you store this information gets
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:08
stored in a context file, and next time somebody runs an
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:12
analysis, hopefully it pulls the right context, it it makes
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:16
the right decision of how to interpret this data.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:19
And then as an analyst, the beauty is that when you discover that,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:23
actually the assumption was wrong that I I know better, that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:27
actually you should also incorporate this information.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:30
Then you can just tell AI that hey, this is what
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:33
you do, this is this is the stuff that you're missing,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:37
and it will go and update the context.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:39
So we're kind of building this knowledge base, this living
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:43
documentation and kind of making it better and better.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:46
So it's kind of our collective brain at this point of
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
50:49
how we understand the complex of data structures.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
50:53
Yeah, I mean that that's super fascinating because I I was sure
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
50:57
that you were going to go on a whole different direction.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:01
Because usually when you're speaking about AI in the context of data
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:05
analysis, you're speaking about AI doing the data analysis for you.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:10
Which is in a technical team, A, you would say,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:13
okay, how much time does it really save you?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:16
And B, you would also say, Okay, there there are enough guardrails
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:20
because it's a technical team and they know SQL and they understand the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:25
quirks and they understand like where the AI can can go wrong and so on.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:29
But what I got from you is something else completely AI
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:33
is actually how you use it is to create this like context
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:37
layer, which might be missing for the analyst.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:40
We and I find this statement very interesting because usually
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:44
we say that it is AI that is missing context.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:47
That you know, if we give AI a data set and it only has this
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:51
data set and it has no business context, then you know it
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:55
can make decisions that might look good on the data, but
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:59
might not have like the the business sense behind them.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:02
And I really love that you expose that that has nothing to do with AI.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:07
That is just you know poor data analysis in general.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:10
And and looking just at the data without bringing it in
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:14
context is is is just you know poor poor analytics.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:18
And it's very interesting that the way that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:20
you approach like solving that is with AI.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:23
That's the first time I ever heard about the idea.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:27
How how how I'm I'm wondering how do you see the effect of it?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:31
Like, like is it helpful? Is it successful?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:34
How do you know it's successful?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
52:43
Yeah, good question. Like, how do you measure the effect of it?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
52:47
Like subjectively, or what you can kind of measure is that how long
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
52:51
it even takes somebody to write a certain script, or how much of
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
52:55
their work day do they spend sitting behind a screen typing in SQL
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:00
versus actually looking at the numbers and making a business decision?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:05
So right now, assuming that the concept context
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:08
is relatively well described like this writing
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:11
the SQL becomes quite trivial and automated.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:14
So that's already a big win.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:16
And it's for me personally, it's a huge win because when I started
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:20
as a data analyst in this team, then yeah, I I knew the in
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:24
and ins and outs of all the tables that were available.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:27
But as a team lead nowadays I have no idea.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:30
Like I just know the main tables, but
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:33
I don't need to know them anymore.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:35
I can just go and ask and get quite good
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:38
answers to my questions from AI.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:40
So it has enabled me to get stuff done on my own.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:43
And I'm I don't have to spend time and effort on like writing
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:47
the correct SQL and debugging some SQL issues.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:50
Like that's done by AI, and I can focus already
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:53
on the outcomes, on the numbers, on the next next
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
53:57
part validating them, making sense of them.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:00
So that AI has definitely enabled it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:02
And it all the dashboards that my team is building now.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:06
For ourselves as well, that we're moving away from this traditional
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:10
BI-based dashboards and we're actually generating dashboards which
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:15
are very specific to our product and features that enable us
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:19
to look into okay, in this market, what are the trends?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:22
How many of the payments missing authorizations or we failed
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:26
to capture, and how many of them are charge chargebacks?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:30
And you can easily then ask the next question.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:33
And hey, I've very helpful in like discovering
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:36
these new opportunities.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:38
And it's what's also awesome is it allows us to
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:41
quickly kind of expand outside of our sandbox.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:44
Because usually in our team and most fraud
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:47
teams, kind of you optimize for fraud.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:49
So you optimize fraud losses and false positives.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:52
Because that that's what you know.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:55
That you can only as a human focus on that much.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
54:58
But now it's very easy for us to add to the context,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:01
for example, hey, what about payment costs?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:04
Because we operate with many payment services providers.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:08
And now it becomes a very interesting exercise that with some
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:12
providers you have certain features available on the payment
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:16
side, which enables you to tackle fraud better.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:19
So you can get the fraud rates down, but at the same time, just the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:24
payment processing cost is a bit higher on those providers.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:28
And you can with AI it's quite trivial to
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:30
add that into the equation as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:33
You don't have to know the all the details about it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:36
The payments team helps us to build that context, but we can
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:40
put it together so we can see that maybe what we're building
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:44
it helps to save on the fraud side, but actually on the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:48
payment side the cost goes up, so it's a net zero.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:51
So why why bother doing it?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:53
Or vice versa, that without sacrificing on the fraud
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:56
rates, maybe we can change something and help
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
55:59
to bring the payment cost down even further.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
56:02
So I think that this AI is not taking our job, but it's enabling
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
56:07
us to be much more powerful and have a bigger effect for the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
56:11
company as a whole, because we can just look at so many things
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
56:15
at the same time and and to make the right decision.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
56:27
That's interesting.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
56:28
So, okay, so you guys do use AI to also write the queries
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
56:32
themselves and also at the context layer, especially outside
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
56:36
of your own team's context, which is interesting.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
56:39
How do you how do you see? I have an opinion about it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
56:42
I want to hear yours.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
56:44
How do you think about non-technical team
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
56:47
members that don't have SQL knowledge?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
56:49
Or are not expert on your data scheme.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
56:52
And having them work with AI for data analysis,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
56:55
where do you draw the line?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:09
So that needs to be managed carefully.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:11
That's it's a tricky part because I can see that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:14
like the fraud conversational analytics context
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:17
that we have built is already very good.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:20
It keeps improving every day, but still it it makes mistakes.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:24
And sometimes the mistakes can have can result
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:27
in really weird out outcomes in the analysis.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:30
So So you still need that human filter in the loop for kind
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:34
of making this drastic or very deep drawing deep conclusions
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:38
which will which will change the logic completely.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:41
Because usually when something looks really promising,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:45
you're missing something, or like a how can
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:48
you like cut the fraud by fifty percent?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:51
It's it's probably unrealistic that you're
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:53
missing some vital piece of information.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
57:56
So a person without any SQL knowledge, or worst of all no domain
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:00
knowledge can take ask the AI some question and get results that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:05
look very good, but they have no way of validating them.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:08
So, therefore, yeah, having this ability to at least read SQL and to
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:13
understand that ask, okay, what the SQL or how do you get the data?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:17
And then look at SQL to see that does it make sense at all?
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:21
And then knowing your fraud domain and business
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:24
domain overall as well, it helps you to validate
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:28
because hallucinations do happen with AI.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:30
And sometimes it it's it's also very good at giving you
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:34
the data in a way that sounds super convincing.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:37
That is like very well presented, uses very fancy
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:40
words, backed up with statistics and data science,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:44
and it's very can be very misleading. It's it sounds very confident.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:48
And then at the same time, as soon as you push back, you're like,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:53
yes, you're absolutely right, it's the totally opposite.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:56
So the human at least today is needed.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
58:59
But at the same time, I can see that the co as the context
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
59:03
gets better that we're building and putting the guard rails
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
59:07
in place, the answers are more and more correct.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
59:10
But yeah, like I would not take the human
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
59:13
out of the loop completely yet.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
59:27
That's interesting. Yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
59:28
Yeah, I think I think it's not like where I'm going with that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
59:32
is not whether we should or can take the human out of the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
59:36
loop, but really is the fact that AI can write SQL, does
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
59:40
that mean that we don't need these skills anymore?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
59:43
We don't need like the analytical skills and AI can just take that.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
59:48
And you know we can give it to CS reps
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
59:50
and they can run the the SQL queries.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
59:53
Or do you still need to have all of this knowledge and technically
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
59:57
understand what's going on and also the mindset to sanity check
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
60:01
and to challenge results that maybe look too promising?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
60:05
Which is kind of like, you know, if it doesn't happen to you
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
60:09
every day, what are you doing as a fraud fighter, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
60:13
Or or as a fraud analyst?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
60:14
AI's job is not necessarily to come in and give you an ability
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
60:18
that you didn't have before, but just to maybe just efficiency,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
60:23
just to save time, specifically in this use case.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
60:26
I'm not saying all use cases.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
60:32
I think that yeah, out of those, the analytical mindset,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
60:35
and the especially the fraud kind of skeptical
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
60:38
analytical mindset is the key part of it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
60:41
Because if I can, I don't know, draw some parallels
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
60:44
that in early days of computing, you know, the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
60:47
programming happened at with ones and zeros.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
60:49
Very like down to the hardware, and then it was with assembler
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
60:53
language also very close to the computer hardware.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
60:57
Like you really could control every registry
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
60:59
and everything that was happening. It was super slow.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:03
And then you move to the higher level languages like
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:06
C and C++ and and SQL itself, like that you're writing
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:09
queries, it's also a higher-level language.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:12
You kind of describe what you want.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:14
Underneath, you still have you know bits
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:17
and pieces moving on on a file system.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:19
So maybe this conversational analytics is just another layer
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:23
that you're you're building on top of the SQL that that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:27
maybe writing SQL is kind of becoming a more niche thing
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:30
and it's not absolutely necessary for an analyst.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:33
I think today it's still very good just to
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:36
validate what you have, sanity check-in.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:38
But but I I can see from my speaking to my team as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:42
Like people are actually saying that they are losing this ability to
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:46
write the SQL fast that since most of the s things are written by
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:50
AI, that it does a good enough, very good job of writing the core of
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:55
it that you don't need to go in and write it yourself manually.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
61:59
It becomes more of a hobby than that, I'm today I
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:02
feel special, I'm gonna write something by hand.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:05
But analytical mindset is something that that adds the most value.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:09
Being able to ask the right question.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:11
And that's the difference between, anyway, a regular
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:15
analyst or business analyst and a fraud analyst.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:18
Like you can take somebody who has really awesome SQL and
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:21
Python skills and data visualization skills, but has
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:25
no idea of fraud, and you put them in a fraud team.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:28
Initially, it will take them quite some time
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:31
to come up with something meaningful.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:33
Even if you give them the task that they build with
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:36
this, do this analysis, they are lacking the context
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:40
and ability to kind of address the fraud.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:42
So it takes some time to get them up to speed.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:45
So yeah, the the analytical mindset is still very needed.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:49
This critical approach, challenging in the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:51
right places, and in our team as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:54
What what's super important is that sometimes your analysis,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
62:57
you do everything right, you come up with very good ideas.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:01
But in order to implement them, it's not just that
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:04
you can write the fraud rule and implement it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:07
You need sometimes you need the business to change something
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:11
in their interface, something in the flow of somebody signing
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:15
up to be a business user with us or a driver.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:18
And for that, you need to go talk to that team, need to
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:21
present the data, convince them, have a conversation.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:25
Maybe they will push back really hard with valid points, then you
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:29
need to go back and and a little bit adjust your system as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:33
So this analyst a lot of times are acting
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:35
as product managers as well.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:37
That they're they're talking to other teams.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:40
And this is not just purely analytics and the AI agent or
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:44
the conversational analytics agent today cannot do that because
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
63:48
on the other side you all you have also humans.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
63:51
Yeah. I I I agree.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
63:52
And I think, you know, in the end, the in fraud analytics, I think
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
63:56
the difference between that and like classical analytics is that you're
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:01
not only like crunching data and presenting graphs, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:05
You're releasing products, you're releasing models, you're releasing
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:09
rules, like the solutions that you that you release, these are products.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:14
So I definitely agree with the product manager kind
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:17
of like half-hat that that you need to wear.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:20
And I would wonder, can you actually develop this mindset, this DNA,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:25
without doing it, you know, to a degree with your own hands?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:29
And we still don't know, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:31
It will be a few years until the first data analyst that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:34
would grow grow up and be trained from scratch with
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:38
AI, and and we'll see if it's possible or not.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:41
But I think today we don't know. Awesome.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:43
Jaanus, thank you very much for this. I I learned a lot.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:47
Super interesting.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:48
I want to kind of like go over a couple of the takeaways
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:52
that I noted down as we were speaking.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:55
Because I think some of these things are super or can be super, super
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
64:59
helpful for teams that encounter similar similar challenges.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:03
And I think a lot of the teams out there are encountering
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:07
similar challenges, are encountering similar challenges.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:11
I think one thing that we talked about is how you deal
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:14
with on one hand making uncertain decisions that are
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:18
very hard to argue for, even after the fact.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:21
And doing that especially around, let's call
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:23
it business-sensitive populations.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:26
And I think we talked about two kinds.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:28
The first is very new customers or first-time customers,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:32
where you know, any any friction that you bring into
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:35
the system can cost you a lot of lifetime revenue.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:39
And the second type of population that we talked about is a bit more
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:43
kind of like high level, is basically going into a new market.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:47
And I think what I got from you is is that your team's approach
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:52
to it, and and I fully agree with it, is actually two pronged.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:56
On one hand, you have a bit of a higher bar, a higher
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
65:59
standard for actioning and for introducing friction.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:03
You talked about it several times when you talked about in the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:07
sense of proving that this account is a fraudulent account
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:11
through history if you have it, through linking if you have
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:15
it, through what whatever kind of like heuristics that are
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:19
kind of like very, very safe and very high confident.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:22
But on the other hand, also to have some sort of budget that is
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:26
negotiated, and maybe negotiated is a big word here, but negotiate
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:31
between the fraud team and let's say the commercial team.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:34
The commercial team can be CS, the commercial team can
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:38
be product, the commercial team can be, you know, the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:42
business unit of the new market you expand to.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:45
Where you're trying to get a feel, or actually not a feel, but an
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:49
agreement of how much we're willing to lose here for this white
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:53
glove white glove treatment that we're giving this population.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
66:57
And really to kind of like define it as part of the budget,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:01
whether this is like customer acquisition cost and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:05
part of that is acquiring fraudulent customers.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:08
Or whether this is part of your acquisition, sorry, not acquisition,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:12
your expansion, your market expansion cost.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:15
And having higher losses in a new market,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:18
that's that's part of expansion.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:20
So I think in general, switching from like a KPI slash goal-oriented
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:25
measurement to a budget, an agreed budget, and starting to optimize in
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:29
around optimizing your decisions around these kind of like budgets.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:34
This is definitely, I think, the right approach. I really love it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:38
And I really like how you kind of like how this was really like
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:42
the red line through a lot of the topics that we talked about.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:46
That was really, really good.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:48
And I think this is like proper, proper lesson that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
67:52
a lot of teams can can and should imitate. We also talked a bit, yeah.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:22
Maybe to clarify that well, we don't have
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:24
like an official budget line for it.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:27
So so it's not like officially part of the budget that yeah,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:30
we'll go there and this is how much we spend on fraud.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:34
But that's just kind of mindset that we have that kind
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:37
of unwritten agreement with the business teams as well,
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:41
that especially new mark new markets or new feature
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:44
launches initially will have higher fraud costs.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
68:48
Yes. Yes, no, no, definitely, definitely.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:49
That that we will deal with a problem.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:51
Yeah, so we we're not stopping the business, we we let the
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:55
business get started and then we optimize it later.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
68:58
So it's to kind of treat it treat it as a budget
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
69:01
line without actually that being in the budget.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:05
Yeah, or at least maybe hidden in the marketing cost or something
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:09
like that, because you don't show your board. Yeah, anyways.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:13
Another thing that we talked about, which I really liked,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:17
it was in the context of first party fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:20
But I I can guess that it can also apply to completely other vectors.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:24
By the way, we didn't talk about it today.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:27
I'm sure it's relevant also to both, but scams.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:30
Also an attack vector where labels are very you know uncertain
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:34
and there's like underreporting and how you basically need
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:38
as the fraud team to manufacture your own labels.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:41
And how in turn that can also lead to very
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:44
adverse effects if you don't control it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:47
If you go into this kind of like recursive logic of as you
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:51
as you put it, you were right because you blocked, and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:54
you blocked because you're right, you were right.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
69:58
And I think here like I really like the approach that you gave around
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:02
measuring not only your solutions, but also the labels themselves and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:07
making sure that on the base layer you're making the right decisions.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:11
Because in the end, if you haven't automated process that labels
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:16
accounts for whatever reason, that is also a solution.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:19
Even if it doesn't act on on accounts or on transactions.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:23
So I think that that was also like a very
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:26
interesting piece of of of of advice.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:28
And lastly, we talked about AI and specifically
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:31
how you use AI for data analysis.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:34
I think I like like two things that you said.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:37
So yes, you're you're using it as an SQL monkey to save you time and to
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:41
to make sure that your SQL is kind of like efficient and and you don't
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:46
like you know forget the the right commas in the right places.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:50
But I think two things that you mentioned that were very interesting.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:55
One is to actually use AI to manage the context layer and how
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
70:59
that not only helps AI itself to produce better results, but it
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:03
helps the analysts, the humans to produce better results.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:07
Especially when you're working in a high change,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:10
high complexity environment like yours.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:13
Where the product always changes and because of that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:16
the data scheme always changes and there are you
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:19
know there are multiple products and and so on.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:22
I think that bit was very, very interesting.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:25
And I think on top of that, and I'm guessing that is kind of like
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:30
you know like a a subpart of of of of that point is that this
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:34
also helps the fraud team to gain context from other teams.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:38
In your case, the payment team.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:40
And I think I need to do like a whole entire podcast on that and how
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:44
like payment teams and fraud teams need to kind of like cooperate
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:49
and how to how to optimize both of these verticals together.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:53
Because you gave the the right example.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
71:55
It might be that you you know you choose to go to a different vendor
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:00
because you will have better results, but then that's some of
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:04
it because of different interchange costs or whatever that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:08
is completely invisible to fraud is is the same or high.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:11
So I think also like getting the context of outside teams
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:15
and understanding what's your real incremental value.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:19
Not how good this rule is, but really how does it affect the entire
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:23
system and how does it affect the like bottom line profit margin?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:27
And using AI for that is, I think, really clever.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:31
I think both of these things are the first time that I heard about at
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:35
least in how you use AI to to to to kind of like increase your not
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:40
efficiency, but really productivity and the value that you bring.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:44
That was super interesting.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
72:46
So, Jaanus, thank you very much for all of these insights.
Close-up of a man with short brown hair and blue eyes smiling slightly.
Jaanus Uudmäe
73:20
It was a pleasure. Very interesting discussion, yes.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
73:25
Of course, yes.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
73:26
Well, I I was assuming with a business like Bolt that will
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
73:29
have a lot of interesting topics to to talk about.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
73:33
And yeah, I I I I was proven right once again.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
73:36
It's always it's always a good feeling.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
73:38
No, Jaanus, thank you very much.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
73:41
It was a pleasure having you on the show. Super interesting stuff.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
73:45
And for all of you guys, see you next Saturday.